Over the last few years you have given teachings about the practice of sacred sex. What is the purpose of sacred sex?

In a sense, there are two purposes for sacred sex. One of them is older, a more natural, physical answer, and that is that sacred sex is, in miniature, everything that is needed for a manifestation ritual. Think about it: it requires a common vision; it requires both feminine and masculine action to bring about the desired product; it involves moving outside of oneself in order to literally and figuratively move inside of oneself; and the union produces a bond that is, at least for that time, as powerful as any compact. So it is a remarkable tool that uses the physical, the mental and the spiritual essences of those taking part in order to bring about a focused and powerful result. It is manifestation in miniature, and it creates strong physical bonds between those who are taking part.

Miniature in relation to what?

What you are seeking to create. In sex, you are seeking to create the orgasmic response, but in manifestation as a whole, the equivalent of that orgasmic response is the common vision that brings about your manifestation in the world, everything from regular parking places to world peace and the completion of Sacred Status. It’s a small, short-term—sometimes way too quick!—version of that larger process. And you know I say “way too quick version,” but the amount of time a large, merged, unified group would spend in a manifestation working is probably about the same as what two would spend in a sacred sex working.

The second purpose is that, in the same way that sex is an act of moving outside of oneself in order to gain something—and that’s important, because you’re not moving outside of yourself to give something that has no strings attached; there’s a very definite carrot in there—sacred sex provides a means for an individual or a pair to move into a creator role. That role is very necessary, not only with the work that’s being done now, but generally in a Guardian’s life in which there is a committed effort to take part in world-changing, Grid-filling activity.

So sacred sex and being a Guardian are both acts of creation.

Yes, particularly now. For instance, in the toning changes I introduced at the recent retreat, the men’s circle is acting out sexual activity. Now, it’s not being done physically or even consciously, but energetically speaking, the men’s circle is now taking a very focused and specific movement toward creation. Instead of supporting the creative work of the feminine circle, they are establishing creation energy that will be amplified through that creative work.

What is toning for?

It’s to help the physical adapt to the higher frequencies of energy that come in.

And how does it do that?

By channeling small portions of that energy during the working, letting our body get used to it so it can adapt to doing that more often and more regularly.


It builds spiritual muscles.

Exactly. Now, what has been the work of masculine energy in that process?

It was providing a stable foundation for the women’s circle to hold that energy.

Yes. Now I’m going to give you a different perspective. The masculine circle has been serving as the Guardians to the feminine Perfecti. Now, all are Perfecti. With this change—with masculine energy functioning as if Fusion had occurred and having a responsibility within the process—that assumes a completion of the physical build-up. In other words, masculine energy’s creative function is only possible if the physical bodies are strong enough to maintain that higher energy as Perfecti. Before I made the changes, masculine and feminine completed each other to create balance. With the changes, it is an entirely new creation. However, it requires building the balance first, because from there it becomes stronger because both parts are working for the same purpose. These changes in toning will bring about Guardians who are able to function through Perfecti energy, whereas Guardians functioning in Guardian energy is what you had been doing.

So toning in the past was to help you manage Guardian energy. Toning in the present is about being able to function—maybe not comfortably, but at least livably—in Perfecti energy. Does that mean you must be a Perfecti to do it? No. It means that there are times that are going to be coming up in which it would be very, very handy to have more than a handful of people able to hold Perfecti energy long enough to get some work done. That was a real problem at the last two awakenings of Dragon Force in Scotland and China. It’s likely to be much easier this time around in Brazil.

In China, during the second time we tried to do the working, I noticed that you distributed some people in certain balanced ways around the group.

You’re right. What I was trying to do was put somebody who was strong and focused with their energy next to somebody who was not.

You would be amazed if you could see thought during a toning as I do. But you don’t have to see thought to be aware of the restless, unfocused behavior. At a retreat—not even where someone might be thinking “this is the fourth toning I’ve been to this week”—at a retreat, where it should be easier to maintain one’s focus, I am seeing people look around at other toners, shifting around from foot to foot, even when they’re doing the most important part of toning—putting energy into the Grid and the planet. I guess it’s just boring to do that. I look out and see people straightening their clothes and taking shoes off and on.

While toning?


I keep my eyes closed so I’ve never seen that.

Aye, well there’s a good reason to keep your eyes closed. It’s pretty discouraging.

It can be hard to stay focused sometimes. Sometimes my mind wanders and I find myself thinking about what I’m going to say in the gratitude/healing request circle.

But the difference is, you realize it and haul your focus back, as opposed to just letting your thoughts run away so that you’re not really doing anything else but holding your hands out.

Now, to get back to the original topic, think about this for a moment: You can imagine how, sometimes during the sexual act as well as during toning, one might be distracted and start staring at the cracks in the ceiling, or—in either situation—one might just start doing the rote “Okay, first I do this and then I do that, and hopefully everything will be okay. And then at the end I raise my hands, just like this!” because sex and toning have their own unique but very similar functions and results. And sacred sex and focused toning are very much alike, especially with this most recent change I put into it.

A good relationship recognizes strengths and weaknesses. Ideally one person’s strengths cover the other’s weaknesses, and in that case two make one—and that’s good and that’s strong and that’s needed. But in sacred sex and in the current toning, the masculine circle, which had been functioning as sort of a Temple Guard in the process, has now become an equal partner in, and in some ways the leader of, the process. In the creation sense, the equivalent would be All That Is.

Now, I don’t really expect the group to be fully comfortable with that change for a little while. As it is, I already see that I should have given the women a bit more information, because although it’s very true that what they do hasn’t changed, they are reacting so profoundly to the changes in the men’s work that the beginning point of the toning is getting thrown off.

It’s just so different, after we’ve been doing it the same way for so many years.

It’s like taking on a new lover. It’s exciting, it’s fun, but you’ve got to figure out how to move together.

So to sum up, the purpose of sacred sex is to create a vision, a focus to that vision, and a bond that is the equivalent of what you are doing in a spiritual manifestation process.

Would you explain the difference between Guardian energy and Perfecti energy?

The purpose of a Guardian is to guide and guard life force to the completion of Sacred Status on this planet and Plan. The work of the Perfecti is two-fold: to support the function of Guardian—and they do that by making use of Guardians’ energy—and to provide a means for Ellic force to function in this world.

Does the energy equal the purpose?

What is the determination of form? Function. What is the limitation of function? Form. It’s the same energy. We are the same energy, you and I. It’s all about purpose. I know you want to think that the Perfecti is the next great step toward becoming God. But you already are!

Well, no, I was thinking more that Perfecti vibrate at, say, 144 megacycles, and Guardians vibrate at 124—just a difference in frequency.

Well, that may be true, and is true except where that Perfecti energy is using Guardian energy to function in the world. But that only has to do with purpose.

Thank you. I just hadn’t been used to seeing energy in that context. It’s very helpful.


You’ve taught on sacred sex in the past, but that was in 4:3:2. Is there a difference now that we are in 5:3:2?

In 4:3:2 you call for help. In 5:3:2, you are the help. In 4:3:2, you access higher energy by way of particular actions that open a door into energy. In 5:3:2, you are the energy that 4:3:2 was opening a door to. 5:3:2 is all about unity and vision. 4:3:2 was about strengthening individuation into activation. Once that activation has come about there is a next step and that is 5:3:2.

Insofar as sex is concerned, 4:3:2 was about two people actually shifting into each other, two becoming one, but that is still separation. 5:3:2 is a very different function, because you still have the orgasmic point of creation, but you don’t become each other, you don’t switch energy. There is not a better way for me to say this that I know of: you don’t switch energy, you switch identity, physically and spiritually. Rather than you, David, filling up with feminine energy and having balance because of that, which is 4:3:2 sacred sex, it’s not about balancing your masculine and feminine energy, it’s about balancing your spirit with form. Both on levels far beyond David and Paula. In sacred sex you are creators.

It seems that what you’re saying is that you need something from the outside in 4:3:2; you’re asking for help, you’re reaching out to the other person and exchanging something. Whereas in 5:3:2 you already are it. You’re simply moving the energy within yourself. Right?

Yes. Absolutely right.

Does the energy work in 5:3:2 sacred sex require an intimate, a romantic bond, a sexual attraction, or can it be an act between two people who merely happen to be of different sexes and share a common vision?

Well, they don’t have to be of different sexes.


Although it is not the number-one way to experience high-frequency sacred sex, it is possible to do it by yourself. That might be the equivalent of having sex with somebody with whom you only have an agreement to practice sacred sex to build energy. In the same way that it can make the energy you send more intense if you have gone through a similar situation, because that connection you have with it makes it more intense, so the connection you have with somebody you do have a loving bond with propels sacred sex into a more intense experience.

I was thinking of that intimate version versus a more ritualized sacred sex—the priest and the priestess who just come together for ritual.

In 4:3:2, there wouldn’t have been a whole lot of difference in the power created, but in 5:3:2 there is. In 5:3:2, the union covers much more than just the sexual connection.

So the next thing we should ask is, How do you create the sacredness in that process? Common expressed intent?

Common vision that is expressed through common intent. And when I say “common” I mean between the two involved.


Yes, a conscious, clearly defined, common vision, and a conscious, clearly defined common intent. Now, from that point on you no longer need conscious, spoken intent. In other words, you don’t have to express it every time, which is one of the advantages of having that bond, because then you will have already put out that when you come together you have a certain vision and a certain intent. And from there on you don’t need to ritualistically put that out there. So the most important thing is that you have two people consciously choosing to take a creative act and raise it up to its highest function by their vision and intent. The vision has to do with creating the energy needed for whatever the byproduct is determined to be. The intent is whatever that byproduct is going to be: “We’re going to come together in a sacred realization of creation energy, and we’re going to direct it to the Grid,” or you’re going to direct it to the Palestinian situation, or you’re going to direct it to Darfur. The intent is where it goes

Is it violating the sacredness of it to direct it towards manifesting “stuff,” like getting a new Cadillac or manifesting prosperity?

There is a difference between manifesting prosperity and manifesting “stuff,” because you can be prosperous without stuff; you can have stuff and not be prosperous.

There is a difference because it has to do with a broader view. Instead of determining which side in a conflict needs the energy, and how you want it to work out, or what meals the people who are starving will get—which is the equivalent of saying I would like a new Cadillac—you are saying we want this situation to heal. You are coming from a much higher place on the mountain. The energy that you are putting out is a force of creation, and that trickles way down to become the things you are wanting to manifest, but where you are is the working up of the power to manifest, and you are not calling something outside of you to give you that power. You are, by this act, pulling it from you.

There are two divisions, and you’ve spoken of one of them. You have spoken of the division between energy and stuff. You can manifest energy for your own prosperity or you can manifest your own stuff; you can manifest the energy for planetary healing or you can manifest the specifics of it. The other is the division between self and other. What about it? Can you have self-oriented sacred sex, or is that just manifestation sex?

Again, at the energy level of sacred sex you are recognizing that, in the same way that you know that Darfur in Africa has these important needs and healing needs to be given to that situation, you also recognize that you want healing of a belief system that has caused you pain and has caused others pain, and so you are asking particularly to be able to create a place of forgiveness in your life. But that is absolutely doing for yourself what is needed. It’s also doing it from a higher level than it would be in the stuff arena of “I’m really mad at someone and I really want to be able to forgive them,” because it’s never about the other person, it’s about you. Does that make sense? You are functioning outside of humanity and see the correlation between what the world needs and how your life reflects that. Your human needs and wants are no longer your primary concern, but are seen as a part of the greater planetary needs you are using creation energy for.

You’ve gotten out of the ego picture into the bigger picture, in which case you don’t have a choice but to have a wider intent.

Yes. That’s a good way to say it.

I’m wondering about people who are very focused on sex, to the point that it is out of balance or has become a way of self-definition. Turning that obsession with sex into a focus for self-definition. Using sacred sex doesn’t change the fact that it’s out of balance. Or does it? Is having sacred sex a way a person can turn an out-of-balance focus or an out-of-balance self-image into a healthy situation?

Is it a fake-it-till-you-make-it sort of thing? Yes and no—don’t you love it when you get that? It is—I think the phrase is “apples and oranges”—to compare human obsession with conscious spiritual focus. Yes, it is absolutely possible that people can fool themselves into thinking that they are functioning in sacred sex when really what they’re doing is continuing an obsession that is really not healthy; but, the sacred sex they are having, even though misused, is still going to have an effect. The effect is not as strong and useful as it would be if it were not taking care of an obsessive behavior, though.

Let’s say you have fallen and abraded the skin on your knee, and the scab is itchy, so you keep scratching it all the time. You know that it’s all right to scratch, scratch, scratch because eventually the scab is going to come off anyway and your scratching will only hasten the process. So what’s wrong with that?

Well, you’re not allowing the scab to do what it’s supposed to be doing, which is protecting the healing tissue underneath.

Exactly. You need to let what’s underneath heal it rather than justify your lack of control and discipline in constantly scratching, because what that’s really going to do is get in the way of the process that needs to happen. That’s why I often recommend celibacy for people who are very focused on sex. [In a whining voice] “I’m really needing to release that energy, Samuel.” Then stop having sex. “Samuel, that cannot be right.” It is.

I guess that would be similar to you giving a teaching on sacred eating. Even if every time I eat more than I should I call it a sacred act, it doesn’t change the consequences.

Yes, you’re still overeating and your body is still going to suffer because of it, and it’s going to have repercussions in your life.

Why is sacred sex important now? In the past, you’ve said that it’s a way of readapting the blueprint. Is that still true, and how does it happen?

Anything that puts you in a situation in which you are, even for small moments, functioning at that high Perfecti level is a good thing as far as your physical body is concerned. There is even a certain amount of benefit from just trying, even if you don’t succeed at it. Sacred sex is like toning now in that way—although it’s a lot easier to tone in public—because you are taking the most powerful creation force that can be used—even just slightly, at this point, in this dimension—and you are giving it a place to work. And so the next time it will be a little stronger, and the next time it will be a little stronger, and on and on to the point that, between toning and sacred sex (and there are another couple of activities that we can talk about another time), you are literally creating a blueprint more than just changing it. That allows that higher Perfecti energy to work to the point that Guardians who did not come here to function as Perfecti can and will, and in a couple of cases already have, not only provide a way to channel that Perfecti energy through and make use of it, but can become Shining Energy for this next stage of the work. That’s why it’s important.