Our first question is: If there is a “force for good,” what does it work on or work against?

Remember that the nature of form has to do with extremes, opposites. The mechanics of this dimension are all about attraction, repulsion—movement, staying in place—so the very nature of form is separation or unity.

At Fusion you removed the requirement for dichotomy, but it did not stop the process. If it had stopped the process, it would have essentially rewired creation force here, and that wasn’t the intention; that’s not a good idea.

A very easy way to describe the force at work in this world in its dichotomy is “good” and “not good,” or “good” and “evil,” but it all arises out of the one force that functions in this world—the force of Source, which is love. Ultimately, big picture, love is the creation force in this world, and from love come the divisions—active and inactive, light and dark, good and “evil.”

“Samuel, are you saying that love has an ‘evil’ side, a dark side?” Well, no, but think about it: on a very mundane level, sometimes the most loving thing to do is to turn away and not interfere. Sometimes the greatest expression of love is to pick your battle—so to speak—and choose to back out of one. Sometimes the most loving thing to do is to let that child stick its hand on the stove—watched carefully, of course. And anybody in the midst of those situations might say, “That’s not love! I’ve got a burned hand to prove that’s not love.” But in the bigger picture, you see, it’s all creation force, it’s all love. However, the way that love works in the world looks like extremes, one which is good and one which you call “evil.” So, yes, there is a force of good in the world, which means there is a force of “not good,” but what that is—only, ever—is the energy of balance being shown as an extreme.

Isn’t that a function of interpretation or perception on our part?

Well, the perception of your ancient, human ancestors was that “This situation is not fun, it’s not good, it’s tricky, it’s hurting me. It’s bad.” And the opposite perception is “This is fun, and I’m enjoying it. I’m good at it, and I’m succeeding at it. It’s good!” But this is what you need to remember: the very thing that you consider evil someone else might consider useful and helpful. And that’s where the problems come in, because when free will chooses to use that which those around them consider harmful, you run into spiritual illness. That can have a profound effect on the working of Source in the world.

Now that’s a big statement: A profound effect on the working of Source in the world. “Samuel, are you saying that Source is limited in this world? That there’s something we can do to stop Source?” Yes, but I don’t think that’s new, because the whole history of this dimensional experiment is that you cannot run full-powered Source through a human body. In fact, without a whole lot of work, you can barely run Ellic force through one, and then only for very limited periods of time.

It has always been that being in form means having boundaries. It’s the reason you cannot act as if you don’t have gravity. Instead, you are sitting in a chair and you are pretty well stuck to the earth. It’s the reason you can’t fly except in your dreams; it’s the reason you don’t have all knowing—because the vessel is limited. So that’s not new, and if you move out to a broader awareness you also realize that those perceived limitations are temporary and are always there for a purpose. So while Source—in the big picture—is fully active, in your everyday experience it cannot be.

Now, I am being very careful to be clear as I explain that, because I don’t want you to misunderstand. When I talk about the idea of “evil” as a balance for good—just as good is a balance for “evil”—I want you to remember that in the biggest picture, Source is still there. If you want or need the idea of God on a throne with all-knowing power—which is a limitation on its own, but if you want that—that God is always there, even when you see the extremes of good and “evil.”

I say to the leadership in this work pretty regularly, “I will never let you go so far that you damage this work. It just isn’t going to happen,” so that is also true in the bigger picture. You will never come to a point in the use of energy that “evil” wins. It’s not possible. Balance is always maintained, but when you’re in the middle of it, it can look pretty out of balance.

Is part of the problem the fact that we have built up such a judgment about “evil”?

It’s a big problem. You know, one of the things that I would feel sad about—if I could feel sad—is that right now in your society you have access to tribes that have never met the greater world. There are almost no innocent, primal peoples left in your world. There are a few but I won’t tell you where, because one of the things that happens is that when a group of people who don’t have the construct of “evil” as a force is discovered, they become manipulated or seduced by the inference of power, and choose to take into their consciousness that imbalance for their own good rather than maintain the vision of a greater good. Primitive societies—be it primitive today or primitive ancestrally—recognize nature as a force. The more acculturated they become the less unity-oriented they are. Nature becomes less benevolent, and the more possible it becomes to purposefully manipulate others for one’s own benefit. So if I were to give a definition of “evil,” it is “separation for the purpose of gaining individual power.”

That’s certainly not what Satan is presumed to be. Satan is the embodiment of a force contrary to the benevolent God.

And that’s a very new construct. That became a popular construct when humanity was ready to transition from its physical to its mental function. Now that humanity is transitioning from that mental and emotional into its spiritual function, that construct needs to be understood so that it’s not further empowered. “Evil” as an active force is a manipulation by those who are seeking their own empowerment. Now, think about this: only highly religious people—particularly the Middle Eastern and European religions—even have a character like “Satan.”

The Native Americans have a trickster, and the northern Europeans, the Norse, have Loki, who is also a trickster, but not intent upon capturing and condemning souls.

Exactly. Not intent on punishing, although certainly a creator at one level or another, but not a punisher. The need to punish is a function of “power over,” instead of empowerment. It’s about recognizing power in your world, but then turning it to your personal advantage, because you’re looking for power over. That’s nothing but, “It’s to my advantage to do this.” That’s when you become “evil,” you see. It would be like a government declaring war on another country so that the weapons manufacturers who gave hefty campaign contributions would get the contracts.

In the Middle Eastern cultures there are the jinns, which again can be tricksters, or which more recently can have the actual power to harm. What is it in the last couple of thousand years that has changed the concept of a spirit that is a trickster—but in the larger picture really working for your good—into an “evil” being that can suck you down into hell? What is it that would change that being into a force of “evil?” I will tell you what it is, very boldly: it’s religion.

Well, I was going to say you have to have a mediator because you’re not powerful enough to deal with it yourself.

Absolutely. There it is!

I have a little story to illustrate that. I have a friend who married a minister, and he and I got into a conversation one day.

I bet that was interesting.

It was. I said, “I don’t believe in sin,” and he blurted out, “Well, of course there’s sin! What’s the use of the church if there’s not sin?”

[Laughing] Yes, that’s exactly the point.

You preserve what you succeed at, and there are those who become more connected to love in the greater view, who see through eyes that want to help humanity. And—I keep saying this because it’s a big point—you have those who see power as a means to advance themselves over the greater whole, and who do it by initiating fear.

Now this is big: in your life—and sometimes it’s even because of you—”evil” wins, the “dark force” is empowered, the balance is weighted towards “evil” when an individual seeks their personal good over that of others. “But Samuel, haven’t you taught us that it’s important that we look out for ourselves, that we take care of ourselves?” Yes, I have, but you are doing that so that you are healthy enough to be able to do the work you’re here to do.

A distortion of that is “I’m not doing this for myself. I’m doing it for God. It’s not that I want power over you. It’s that I serve God, and you are blaspheming,” or “You are an infidel. You are a sinner.”

“What I believe is bigger than what you believe, and my belief says if you do not believe what I believe, you are wrong and I am right.”

That seems to be a big force in the world right now.

At about the age of five to seven, children do that very same thing: “This is my clubhouse, and you cannot come in because you still wear diapers, because you don’t speak the same language, because….” It’s a child’s response.

I’ve wondered if there’s not a typical “life cycle” for religions. The time of the Inquisition was when Christianity went through that stage big time, and I wonder if Islam is going through that stage now as part of its development?

Well, Christianity is still going through it.

I would not have thought to the same extent.

I hope not, and it would be nice to think not, but in fact in Africa, and in parts of the Caribbean as well, some of the most fundamental of Christian sects that do such things as drinking poison and handling snakes as proof that “We are good, because we are not harmed. Evil only happens to people who are not pure in their beliefs.” And so when somebody is bitten, they are not taken to the hospital, because “You cannot be cured. You got what you deserved.”

I absolutely agree with you though that the need to create fear in order to have the soul’s bondage is absolutely what’s going on in the younger religions now. That kind of base manipulation is, as you well know on a smaller level in your day-to-day life, a technique that works. “No pain; no gain” is maybe a smaller version of “What I believe is right, and if you do not believe it, you are wrong, and I will make you fear so that you see the power I wield,” and fear as power works.

It got us into Iraq.

Yes, but it also got you out of the woods so that the bear wouldn’t get you. It’s an instinctual thing. “I will get hurt if I do what is wrong.” But it’s moved from keeping your physical self alive to taking away the power that your spiritual self can infuse into your life, so that a few control the many and they do it with fear. And it’s done all over the world. Without that construct of power, you would have a more primitive style of working with nature, but even that was manipulated until it evolved to a point in which there were those who said, “This drought is because you have done ‘evil’ and we are being punished for it.”

There is a place for punishment. It’s called consequences. It’s called karma. It is not retribution. It is not vengeance. It’s letting the child stick its hand on the stove for a higher good. You just need to be careful whom you are allowing to be the judge of that higher good. Ultimately, the higher good that you are responsible to is your awareness of it. And when I say “your,” I don’t mean mass consciousness, I mean you as Guardians, because you open the doors in this world. Your work with power pretty well determines the road that the rest of the world is going to tread. So if you misuse power and you punish and you manipulate, things get to continue right on as they are with no transition. Recognize that the greatest power there is is love, and that the spirit you are is bigger than the form you are, that striving for greater unity creates joyful fulfillment. The individual who has power over—be it other individuals, or groups, or the masses—does not have joyful fulfillment, they have a personal, punishing power.

It’s “evil.”

Yes, it’s “evil.”

Guardians are creating the playing field, so as a Guardian your personal choices are what the transition is built on. Your world is at a time of transition. It is moving from one form of knowing—as I mentioned a little earlier, that’s mental/emotional control—to the next level, which is a spiritual awaking to the fact that you are spirit using the human body, a costume, a culture—all of that. The playing field is personal empowerment without manipulation by fear for the purpose of an expansion of spiritual awareness—unity rather than disunity.

As a Guardian, your day-to-day choices either feed, strengthen, or accommodate love as a force of good, or a force of “evil.” If you choose the route of “evil,” it may not be that you become a Satanist, it might be “I choose not to act on the impulse to do good.”

But as a Guardian, one always wants to see oneself as doing good. How do you know when you’re not doing good?

For one thing, if you’re questioning, or hiding, or ashamed of what you’re doing, you probably need to do some fine-tuning, because if you’re saying to yourself, “The fruit from this tree is starting to look withered. Have I not been doing good?” you’ve probably already given yourself the answer. Joyful fulfillment is a very big signpost. “Am I free, light? Do I have or am I causing sorrow, pain? Will my choices stand up to scrutiny, or am I busy justifying actions I don’t want people to know about that create pain and sorrow which causes me to hide my actions?” It’s the sorrow and pain—your own or that of those who know about your “hidden” actions that should cause you to question, and the question is telling you that some fine-tuning is needed. Or some people may just need to out-and-out start over!

How have these concepts affected the Guardianship and your work?

There are those within humanity (and Atlantis reminds you that Guardians aren’t immune to this) who consciously feed the construct of “evil,” and that leaves a mark. That mark is that you feel depressed, down, unhappy, angry, cranky, irritated. You show negative reactions in the presence of that sort of conscious “evil.” However, there are also those who are feeding “evil” by not amplifying good, because one of the ways that you can bring about balance is by putting more weight on the other extreme.

By seeing the positive.

By consciously choosing to see the positive, not just seeing it. When you are caught in a cycle of physical, mental, emotional negativity, you are literally adding to the debt of disintegration and sabotaging the work of creation being done through the Guardianship.

Okay, I’m going to play Devil’s advocate here. “Samuel, you just don’t know what it’s like out here in the trenches. I have to make a living, I have to pay my bills, I have to keep my mother-in-law happy, I have to make sure my kids stay out of trouble. Life is a big pressure in a lot of ways, and it’s easy to become disillusioned, depressed, overwhelmed.”

Actually, it’s not. You have to train yourself to it. You have to develop consistency with those negative reactions in order for them to become a part of you. Children are so much fun because they’ve not bought into those reactions.

We haven’t taught them those reactions.

Yes, exactly. They emulate what they see, so when they see an adult not getting their way and misusing power to force somebody else to change and do what they want, the child thinks “Ah, I need to yell loud enough, and be strong enough to beat the other person.” When they see that getting out of control—mentally or physically—and doing something that takes away the joy can get you what you want, even if what you want isn’t for the best good, that child quickly learns to do that. It doesn’t come equipped with that, it is learned by watching it work for others.

Yes, you’re absolutely right. The world wants to drag you down, and the force of “evil” works its way in by playing on your heartache, by playing on your lack of awareness of what you need rather than what you want. When you’re invested in what you want and it doesn’t come about, “evil” weasels itself in by telling you, “You’ve been wronged. People don’t understand you. You’ve been cheated. You should have vengeance. You have your rights.” Sometimes they hear only what they want to hear—what validates their actions—even when they hear it from me! But when your actions are based on the intent of running over others so that you can have your way and get what you want, then you’ve opened the door to creating “evil” rather than simply maintaining a really useless construct.

Despite that, society tends to teach children through punishment.


If we were raised by being punished as children, won’t we have a tendency to want to punish ourselves at some level?

Punishment is something that works, so society doesn’t bother looking for alternatives. The cultural construct of a punishing God, of a punishing people, a punishing parent—any of those down to the smallest version of it—if it is successful, it gets continued. So if you motivate yourself for good by judging and punishing yourself into action—”I am so broke, I’ve got to fix me.” “I am weak, and I must be strong”—and the actions you take to gain that strength move you away from your recognition of union with Source, then you are the “evil” in the world.

There’s a pretty big split—it’s not even a fine line—between the point where self-awareness changes over into self-importance. Awareness says, “I did not do that so well. I need to learn from those mistakes and not make them again,” but self-importance says, “I made a mistake. It is a horrible, awful mistake. It cannot be fixed. I am a worm, and I have created trouble and I will never be able to put it right.”

“I can never show my face in public again.”

Exactly. That’s self-importance, not spiritual health. It’s runaway ego. But if you choose that kind of behavior—sackcloth and ashes and the cat-o’-nine-tails and beating yourself up and judging yourself as guilty—you’re not doing good; you are functioning as a destructive force rather than a constructive force, whether it’s done consciously or unconsciously. The good you do must be conscious. The “evil” you do does not have to be. And that is the difference between Guardians and their responsibilities, and the unawakened ones in mass consciousness and their choices. Guardians must choose to do good. Guardians must choose not to let destructive forces abide within—in the way they think or in the way they act. And Guardians create havoc in the Plan when they think not being consciously destructive is enough, and is the same as being constructive. It’s not.

[Laughing] You might notice that I do a lot to frustrate you. If I can make you frustrated—and I have to maintain a careful line there, because if I make you angry, you are going to be destructive—but if I can make you frustrated, there’s the chance that you’re going to do an internal review and see your “stuff.” If those in mass consciousness get frustrated, they are likely to respond with anger. Guardians, ideally, are going to look within rather than letting anger be their choice. So I do a lot of frustrating.

Why is it so important that we understand the nature of evil at this time?

Right now in the New Age community there is a lot of interesting—or maybe not so interesting—talk about beings who control you and feed off of the power that comes with negative emotional energy. Now you may not be familiar with any of those stories, but they’re big enough that it’s moving into the Guardianship’s consciousness and that has to be stopped.

The thing is, to a certain extent it’s true, but it’s only true in the same way that Santa Claus is true. It’s only true in the same way that many of the world’s societies have decided that January 1 is when you move from one year to another; I can then use that energy to create a doorway because there are enough people thinking a doorway is really happening.

In a world in which a judging, unloving, punishing God is waging a war against the forces of “evil” led by the god opposite—Satan—there are enough people who believe in that that indeed there is, in this world, a force that is the manifestation of that whole scenario. But remember, you are greater than any force in this world. You must—and if I did not say that clearly enough, I’ll say it again—you must consciously release the bay’unz that have tied you into empowering that system.

There are those in this world who are capable of establishing a portal into a dimensional reality that is, in effect, hell-like. It’s a dimension in which creation energy is the energy of separation, whereas here, creation energy is the energy of integration. To be able to, at will, tap into that dimensional reality and allow into this reality more of those beings that feed on pain and despair is a great misuse of your true nature and your true power. To choose to even listen to or think about that is adding to disintegration.

The problem is that you—the Guardianship—create by your very nature. If you create a belief that says, “No pain, no gain,” you can arrange your life to prove that it’s absolutely true—for you. You manifest crises so that eventually the pain piles up so much that it shifts you into action and it works out okay, so the pain provides the gain.

It’s true for you, but it’s not real. It’s a construct that serves you, but it’s not a force of creation. It is a means of finding one’s power even if it is through pain. That way of working causes you to constantly build the power of that negative way of working so that you are forced to keep going.

Now, ancient humanity found that that motivated them to help others and create a better society as a whole, but it means that you are ready on a very human level to accept “There are forces in the world that are not good, but I can use them for good.”

That’s improper thinking, but that’s not the point. The point is, the brain has turned that way of thinking into a force, and that force is “evil.” That way of thinking is in your bones, and it’s multiplied by the billions who have given power to it over time. For that reason, there literally is access to a force that, as is typical of human consciousness, you believe looks like you, so that force gets two legs, two arms and has become Satan or evil spirits of some kind. Right now, when humanity is so close to taking off the blinders and opening the once closed doorway into a higher spiritual awareness, that is being twisted so that it’s not Ellic force and Shining Ones coming into the world, it is another dimensional force—maybe they should be called “Darkened Ones.” It’s allowing in a travesty of what really is, but it makes more sense to most people and so they add energy to it.

So if we, as Guardians, start feeding that thought form or that belief that these beings exist, we are laying down pathways for mass consciousness to continue to energize it.

You are doing more than that; you are not only creating a pathway, you are opening the door.

There are in this world “evil” energies that feed on the pain and the suffering and the disintegration of the spirit, but they cannot affect you, they cannot reach you—or anyone else—if you are not functioning, by action or inaction, by deed or word or thought or intent, in that system of disintegration.

“Greater is that which is in you than that which is in the world.” That force is here and it should not be, but it will remain if you do not challenge it. Believing in it, thinking about it, “fighting” it will empower it. No, what you do is you empower love, unity, and the creation process. You function at your best and your highest to overcome what is in the world. If you do not let yourself buy into the construct, you take its power away.

When you were a young child, did you have a bogeyman?

Oh yes. He lived in the closet in our bedroom.

And it was meant to make you afraid, and thus affect your behavior.

Yes, if we didn’t go to sleep the bogeyman would come out and get us.

At what point did the bogeyman no longer have any power over you?

I looked in the closet one day and realized it was an army greatcoat with a gas mask on top of it—this was right after the war, of course. It looked really frightening though.

[Laughing] That’s pretty good. You reached a point where you realized that it was not harmful to you; it was nothing to be frightened of.

I’m ashamed to say that I used it to terrorize my younger sister instead.

So you passed it along because you saw that it was very useful for what you wanted. And so it is with the forces of negativity in the world. It’s a useful bogeyman for those who wish to control the power you have. Not to take it, just to make sure you don’t use it. It’s a “bogeyman,” but that doesn’t mean you’re not afraid when you’re told the bogeyman is there. It doesn’t mean it’s not real, but it’s not real beyond the construct. It’s very real insofar as its ability to manipulate you, but not real in the slightest in the greater picture. It’s only powerful to the extent you let go of your power so that you are ruled by fear. But it’s not a function of Source in this world; it’s not a part of the hierarchy of created energy in this world. It is an after-effect of negative thinking, not a reality.

You’re saying, “It’s real inside your head, and it affects you because what’s in your head affects you, but it’s not out there.”

That’s exactly what I’m saying. There is no cosmic war between “good” and “bad” forces. There is no crack in the cosmos through which gray beings are moving into the world and sucking out your power and ability to function, except where you believe it to be true. If you believe it’s true, you’re getting your power effectively nullified, and you’re getting more frustrated, you’re getting more angry, you’re getting more erratic, and you’re getting less trustful—all of the things that keep you from being what you are, because of something that isn’t even real. It’s in your brain, and it’s a waste, it’s a horrible waste of a Guardian’s work in this world.